Tahseen: Welcome to the People-led Show. I'm your host, Tahseen Kazi, and our guest for today is the incredible Kavita Kurup. She's global head HR and corporate communications and is a seasoned people leader with almost three decades of experience in the field. At UST, she works closely with the board and executive team with a goal to make work life better for more than 35000 ussociates around the world.

Tahseen: She's an award winning Ivy League people leader who is passionate about Indian aesthetics. Welcome, Kavita. Thank you so much for joining us today. 

Kavita: It's a pleasure being here, Tahseen. 

Tahseen: So, Kavita, usually, we start these interviews with a very simple question we want to know who are you as a person.

Tahseen: So who is the human behind the human resources? Who is Kavita outside of work? 

Kavita: So beyond work, I think my passions would exchange to someone who reads lot who loves to visit historically significant places, especially there on the UNESCO world heritage sites delving into diverse cultures and languages and really enjoying a lot of music and theater. And if there's good food to accompany all of that, then even better. 

Tahseen: Wow. That I I think what I'm hearing is a lot of culture and you know travel and readings, I think it's a lot about, you know, keeping on learning something new each time with whatever you are doing. 

Kavita: Oh, yes. I think learning has been my personal success enabler. It's something I do all the time. It's something I believe in, and I think you get to learn not just from, you know, actually delving into a course, but just by daily interactions, movies, books, food, interactions with people, there is some learning everywhere. 

Tahseen: So Kavita, moving on I think my first question for you today is as a people leader, what are two or three employee experience dilemma or questions that you want answers to?

Kavita: I think you know, one of the main challenges that we have is really how do you harmonize the diverse global workforce that we have today. Right?

Tahseen: How do you align employee experience with rapidly evolving digital landscape? So how do you really stay high-tech and high touch at the same time So that people appreciate the human connect, but they also appreciate the fact that you're bringing the best in technology to them to ease the data collection aspect of it, the insights part of it, the trends part of it. So how do you foster that delicate balance between fostering innovation and preserving a people centric approach. Right? How do you really retain the humanness of HR?you you mentioned something, high tech and high touch, and I think that's something very, crucial in today's world. So if you can go a little deeper into that what are some things that, you know, you are doing or you suggest another people leaders can do to balance between high-tech and high touch? 

Kavita: I think what we do at UST is, you know, ensure that everything is driven as a data-based decision. So data based decision making is the fulcrum of all of our HR processes. How do you really collate the data, interpret that data, and really apply it so that you're able to build world class people practices for our thirty five thousand odd associates across the globe. For that, three things are important.

Kavita: One, it is important for all of our HR professionals or at least my team to be very conversant with technology, with analytics, with knowing how to interpret whatever is being collected and presented back to the employees in a way that is not just palatable, but makes sense for them. Right? The what's in it for me, it needs to be very, very clear. Second is having a very keen understanding of what are the strategic goals of the organization.

Kavita: If you do not know what the strategic goals of the organization is, then it becomes very difficult to tie in the technology and the humanness of HR and bring it all together and take to the employees. And third is to always remember that, you know while we have technology to take care of a lot of work for us, it is still just taking care of the mundane. The strategic piece, the humanness of it, the empathy, the conversation still are with us as humans. Right? And that is something we should never forget.

Kavita: Got it.  I wanna understand what is the employee expectation of today. I mean, there, you know, there's so much of movement in terms of remote and hybrid and, you know, in office, there is the Gen Z population. So how is the employee expectation changing today? So the employee expectation of today is they want the workforce of tomorrow the workplace of tomorrow. Right? They want a place that, not just appreciates what they bring to the table, but gives it to them in a way that is most comfortable for them to deal with. Right? So it it it looks at the, the what's in it for me for the employees very, very clearly. It still takes in all of the various, aspects that are happening in the globe.

Kavita: Right? So if you look at a very small piece of it, today social media is so so relevant. Right? Especially as we came out of the pandemic, we realized that a lot of people use social media to stay connected and even present a version of their lives to the whole world. 

Kavita: That pressure of staying relevant on social media today is as high as staying relevant in the workplace, as high as staying relevant in their personal lives. So how do you really create an environment that gives them all of those opportunities while still keeping in in line the culture of the organization, still keeping in mind the requirements of what is required to really work. Right? So for example, moonlighting came up as a huge concept during, the pandemic and still continues to plague a lot of organizations. But at the same time, you also had the gig economy.

Kavita: The people say, you know, hey. I don't want security with one job lasting me my whole life. I wanna do different different things. But where as organizations have you really sat down and created that strategic, perspective, saying that, okay, this is what construes moonlighting, and this is how it would work.

Kavita: So today, a lot of organizations say that moonlighting is when somebody does not intellectually work for somebody else doing the same kind of work that they're doing for that particular organization. But if somebody is a baker or somebody drives Uber and does it for the entire stretch of the time that they are supposed to be working, it's still moonlighting. But we don't have rules that really define that. Right? We're still grappling with those, challenges.

Kavita: The same thing with the gig economy. If you look at the gig economy, yeah, great. You can do multiple jobs. But then which of those jobs is going to give you your benefits? Your medical benefits, your Provident Fund, your gratuity and all the other benefits that come with one job that used to be there earlier.

Kavita: Is it going to be divided by all of the gigs that are there? And who's going to manage the switch on and switch offs and the transfer ins and transfer outs? So are we really creating an ecosystem where people are going to be left bereft of benefits because they are now doing gig economies, and they have to factor that into the cost. Right? So we don't have really rules of engagement that allow people to look at all of this, and I think that's what people are looking forward to.

Kavita: Can we look at a workplace that really helps us understand as employees what's the right way to work and what are the benefits and the advantages and disadvantages of each of these things. And as corporates, what is it that we can expect from our employees? I think once we have that dialogue and arrive at an ecosystem that makes sense, it will be a lot easier to deal with what's going on. 

Tahseen: Got it. So there's this gig economy. There is moonlighting. And, you know, I've been speaking to other HR leaders. You know, there's a lot of talk about the younger employees now want to work with a purpose. They want to drive value, etcetera.

Tahseen: There are so many different things, that are being spoken about. So what does that workplace of tomorrow look like? What can it potentially look like rather I should say.

Kavita: You'll have to give me two minutes to take out my crystal ball, you know, to tell you what the workplace of tomorrow really looks like, but I'll take a shot at the question. I think it's great that employees want to work for a purpose, want value out of it. I think it's something that all organizations should strive for and not necessarily only with the youngsters in the organization, but everybody across generations. Organizations that have a very strong purpose, which are tied to a very common, you know, strong goal and a mission are the ones who have really survived year on year and have longevity built into the organization.

Kavita: Right? For example, at UST, our purpose has always been from day one twenty five years ago has been transforming lives. Transforming lives of our people, our clients, and the world around us. And we are very, very keenly tied into that purpose. So no matter which part of the world you go to, whom you speak to?

Kavita: Whether you speak to someone who has just joined us or you speak to somebody who's at the senior most rung of the organization, they will all say the same thing that, hey - the work that we do will transform lives. It will transform lives of these groups of people. So the moment you have that as a North Star, then everything that you do is tied into that. 

Kavita: So if we are putting together, say, employee policy, then we are saying, hey by putting this policy together, are we transforming lives of our employees? Is it going to benefit our clients? Can our clients implement this policy and help their people? Are we giving back to society in some format or the other? So everything that you do then gets tied in, which is why it's so important to have a deep purpose and believe in it. Right? 

Kavita: It's important to not just define it in a visioning workshop once in a year, but also take that purpose and live it day on day. And I think it's important that leaders you know, it has to be a top down approach start with, leaders have to walk the talk. They have to live, breathe, and emulate that particular purpose in the actions that they do. So if we are saying that, you know, another way I mean, saying that you'll hear across UST is that, you know we are all equal, we just do different jobs. So if I say that, then it means that there is no hierarchy. 

Kavita: We will all work together.

Kavita: We will collaborate. We'll innovate. We just do it at different levels in the organization because that's what's required. So then it becomes something that's very, very core to the organization and not something that is just spoken about in an employee handbook. 

Tahseen: I think there, right there, that what you said, right, about no hierarchies, emulating what you stand for so that, you know, people can follow suit.

Tahseen:  If I'm if I'm correct to assume that right there is, how you would define culture probably. Is that correct Kavita?

Kavita: So I think, you know, culture can is defined by what wakes you up in the morning and brings you to work. Right? Do you wake up on Monday morning and say, oh my God it's work? Or do you wake up, say, oh my God it's work. Right? So that just the change in that exclamation should help you define what the culture is.

Kavita: If it is a space that people look forward to coming in, where it's a space which allows you to experiment, to innovate, collaborate, have fun at the same time, work hard because I think I don't think people shy away from hard work. Right? People want interesting work, a lot of work, and they want to do it with people who are equally interesting. So once you create that balance and you create those synergies, then it starts building those cultural pieces.

Kavita: Right? So, it is the dream of every organization that, you know, when their people go out in other organizations and you see them on the run, and you say, oh, there goes a ussociate you know, because of the way they carry themselves, the way they talk, the way they bring themselves to the job completely. That helps distinguish them. So that's what really will define culture. 

Tahseen: So Kavita, earlier in the conversation, you spoke about, how you need to be data led. And, you need to be able to read the information that is with you. But I think if we have to go to the start, we also need to understand how are the employees feeling at the moment? So what are some ways or, you know, channels that you are using to listen to employees and to stay in touch with what's happening on the ground?

Kavita: Oh, multiple formats, right? So we have something called listening posts where people are engaging with the business partners on a regular basis. We had the annual engagement survey, and it doesn't get more honest or you know, the feedback doesn't get as harsh or as good than that because it's anonymous. Everybody really gives you that kind of feedback.

Kavita: And it's very heartening to see some of those statements. And, you know, while we focus on the quantitative and we say, okay, on a scale of one to five, tell us how you feel at work. I think a lot of time we spend on looking at the qualitative statements that people submit, saying, what really defines what they are saying? So if you say that nine times out of ten, I will recommend somebody to the workplace. In the qualitative statements, are you really talking about, you know, the way your managers give you feedback about it being a cohesive atmosphere, about it being a great place to work, about us being a top employer, then it balances out.

Kavita: But if in this qualitative comment, you're saying, you know, oh my god. I'm being abused and, you know it's a crappy workplace and, you know, I'm I'm not respected, Then clearly, it is just a tick box activity. So for us, we look at both aspects and see how is it that you really are being experienced as an organization. As I said earlier, right, we are a extremely nonhierarchical driven organization. So leaders are extremely accessible, and there are a lot of places where we do a lot of conversations.

Kavita: So whether it's town halls on a regular basis.

 And a lot of us do ask me anything sessions throughout the year where it's an open forum, people can come in and literally ask us anything, and we try and answer those questions.

Kavita: We also have a large network of coaches known as high performance coaches who keep doing conversations with our people on various themes, like how do they how do you set goals, how do you give and receive feedback, how is it that you'll grow within the organization. And they also, you know, consolidate and share that information.

Tahseen: Alright. I think one challenge that a lot of HR professionals face is actually, even getting people to respond to these surveys. So how can leaders build trust to boost employee participation in feedback surveys? 

Kavita: I think, you know, the answer is in your question. You need to build trust.

Kavita: When you tell people that it is an anonymous survey, it needs to be anonymous. It shouldn't be something where at the back end, I can move a few buttons and know exactly what someone has said about whom. Right? It means that you have to sensitization conversations with managers and leaders saying, do not go and try and read the qualitative statements that try and figure out who that person has given you that feedback because you're used to this style of conversation. And most importantly, it means that you should hear what they are saying and read between the lines because there is a lot that people talk about in these surveys.

Kavita: And once you do that and people feel heard, once they feel that what they are being what they are saying is actually being taken seriously, that people are really responding to it, leadership is acting on it, then the next time you do such a survey, it automatically will increase the kind of, people, you know, are responding to it. So it has to be a regular feature. It has to be a consistent feature. And I I think as an organization, you have to realize that this is something you have to do year on year on year on year, quarter on quarter, month on month, week on week. It isn't a shot in the arm where you take it once and then forget about it.

Kavita: This is something that you have to keep doing over and over as pulse surveys, as annual engagement surveys. And at times, once the organization is mature enough to also move from it being an anonymous survey to then being an optional survey, right, where you choose to give your name or not, to then saying that, hey. If you're that keen about making this a great place to work, we want to hear your view, and we want to give a face to that voice. So, you know, come forward and say that. But that's a long journey, and, You know, you have to stay invested in that journey if you really want to see that come to light.

Tahseen: I'm gonna pick on one word there that you mentioned, you know, great place to work. So, Kavita, what does it take to become a great place to work? 

Kavita: Again, you know, I always go back to my rule of three. One, there has to be a deep commitment from every single employee in the organization Right from the leadership to the mid management to the junior most person saying that, hey. I'm here to make a difference. I'm here not because, you know, I need a job to pay my bills, but I'm here because what I bring to the table is so unique and different and so so powerful that I will be able to make a difference to that organization. 

Kavita: The second thing that we need to do to be a great place to work is genuinely believe in people practices of the organization and align each of those people practices to achieve the strategic goals of the organization. 

Kavita: And third and most important, I think, is just to have fun. Right. I think at times, we take ourselves and the work we do so seriously.

Kavita: We forget that we spend most of our lives in a job at the workplace with people who we work with all the time. So we need to infuse that spirit of fun, of joy, of just celebrating that we have a space that allows us to bring our true selves to work every single day. I think these three things is a good start. 

Tahseen: Extremely well said.

Tahseen: So I think commitment, being genuine, and having fun, I think you couldn't have said it better than that. So, Kavita, shifting gears a little bit, you have on you've been in the industry for almost three decades. Where have you seen employee experience break the most, and what insights have you gained from those experiences? 

Tahseen: I think employee experience, breaks the most when it becomes a us versus them conversation. Whether it's between a manager and leader and their team, whether it's between business and HR, whether it's between finance and HR. Wherever this us versus them format creeps in, you have a break in employee experience because then it become then ego comes in and you're trying to show that your function is better at doing something, and you're not really working for the benefit of the people or the organization. Right. So for me, that's where I've seen the most breaks take place. Alright.

Tahseen: I think I'm nearing the end Kavita. I think last two two, three questions to go.

Tahseen: I think my next one is about, you know, mistakes that people leaders can avoid. So what are two or three mistakes that people leaders must avoid at all costs in the process of taking action on employee feedback. Any suggestions there? Recommendations, suggestions? 

Kavita: So more than mistakes, I think, you know it is, one, do not get led by what's happening around you.

Kavita: Right? Listen to your people. Just because it's a trend so for example employee well-being is a huge trend these days. So just because you're a people leader and employee well-being is a huge trend, don't insist that everybody should meditate for one hour a week and say, you know, that's what I am doing as a people leader. Maybe your people would rather have Zumba classes.

Kavita: Maybe they would rather just sit down and have a nice gossip session. Maybe they would just like to go for a movie together. So it's important to listen to what your people are saying and respond accordingly. That's very, very important in feedback. The second is listen to what they are not saying.

Kavita: So people say a lot of things, but they mean a lot of things. And there is it's important as people leaders to try and keep questioning them and talking to them and building that environment where they can come up to you and tell you what's really working and not working for them. So first is listen. Second is listen to what they are not saying. And third is don't try crafting responses to what they are saying while they are saying it.

Kavita: Right? Just listen. At times, they might just want to be heard. It is not necessary that leaders should have all the answers or that they have to defend every single thing that comes up. Last but not the least is be vulnerable.

Kavita: If you think something's not working for you and it's something that the team can do to help you deal with it. Be vulnerable and seek their help as well. I've often found that when you share your vulnerability with the team you end up forming a much more deeper, cohesive connect with the team, and then the way you'll interact gets elevated. 

Tahseen: Absolutely, Kavita. 

Kavita: I think those are some really great action and points, you know, for people leaders out there listening to this podcast. Kavita, going back to your point on, you know, being data led how are you using or are there any recommendations or suggestions on how people leaders can be data led to keep their attrition numbers in check, especially for their top talent. Data is an input.

Kavita: The outcomes are many. Now how you use the data is entirely up to you as a leader. Now whether you use that to identify, are there certain pockets within the organization where there is high attrition? And, hence, what are those people saying and what are some of those themes of attrition and tackling those could be one way. The second one could be of saying that, you know, hey, here is data that tells me that that is a particular task that is being very difficult for that group of people. And if we make that we simplify that task down, then they would be more happier. So data is just an input. The outcomes are completely different for different people leaders. 

Kavita: While While data is a great way for us to know what's happening for today, it is also an input for what might happen tomorrow. And at times, it needs to be viewed as what it is, an input mechanism. It isn't the cure of all evils in the system, and it's not in isolation, going to solve all of the problems that we face in the corporate world. 

Tahseen: I think one thing that you said really stuck with me is that data is input for today, but I also tell you what it you know, is gonna happen tomorrow. So and I think especially with HR. Right? A lot of data that comes through are all leading indicators of what you might see happening tomorrow.

Tahseen: That brings me to my last question for the day, Kavita. what is one advice that you would like to give to a first time CHRO. 

Kavita: So if you're a first time CHRO, I think it's important that you just hit pause and reflect on your journey so far, see what's worked for you and what hasn't, and just applaud yourself on making it to where you have reached today. The second is don't ever forget that it's all those little little moments in time that has built your journey, and there are a lot of people looking up to you.

Kavita: So when someone reaches out to you to have a conversation or says, hey, let me take a picture with you because you inspire me, don't brush it off because Your journey is inspiring the next bunch of leaders coming forward, so it's important and it's important that you be that source of inspiration for them. And third and most important is just remember that people are the center of everything that we do, Whether we are a CHRO or a CXO or any leader, if we don't forget that, I think we'd all be very, very successful people across, all the corporates that are there. 

Tahseen: Kavita, our podcast is called the People-led Show. So on that note of remember, the people are at the center of everything we do, I'm going to, you know, thank you very much, and and thank you for your time. Thank you for the amazing insights, and I do hope you had a good time as well. 

Kavita: I did. Thank you so much, Tahseen. It's been lovely chatting with you. ​