Pawan: Hello,  everyone. Welcome to this new episode of People Lead Show where I'm interviewing and meeting CHROs from Southeast Asia region. In this episode, I speak to Itson, who is the CHRO of AIA Indonesia.  Apart from excelling at people and HR function, Itson has also excelled in handling other c level responsibilities  like leading operations, government relations, IT, and even legal. He's a firm advocate of people and culture.

 Pawan: And in this conversation, we talk a lot of things about new technology, automations, and, of course, AI and HR. This conversation was pre recorded in the month of December, so you might see certain context or hear certain context with respect to that period of the year. And if you like this episode, please share it with other people leaders and drop us a comment, and we'll make sure that we probably inculcate newer suggestions in the upcoming episodes. So here it is. 

 Pawan: Super. Thank you so much, Ichsan, for taking out the time to do this. I'm very, very thrilled. I think  all the lists that are out there, top hundred HR leaders from Southeast Asia, top leaders from Indonesia, and everywhere. You're always there in that list, and I'm really glad that I've got the opportunity to talk to you and host you on our show, Toast. So thank you so much for doing this.

Ichsan Adiwijaya:  Well, my pleasure to be talking to you and sharing my experiences.  Glad to be here. 

 Pawan: Yeah. It's and so there's 1 question that I ask all my CHROs that I host on the show, which is who are you outside of work?

 Pawan: Because I do understand when you are a CHRO and and a leader it becomes like, it's it's sometimes all about work. But who are you outside of work and what are you doing when you're not wearing your CHRO hat? Yes. I'm quite different when I'm I'm not on the job. Right?

Ichsan Adiwijaya: Actually,  I'm a laid back person. You know? And at the job, you're required to lead and to sometimes be,  you know directive for leading people. But on my pastimes, I just like to hang out with friends.  And I made it a purpose on my weekends to really wind down and do my hobbies.

Ichsan Adiwijaya: I'm I'm generally more like, a sports person, a day person. So I'm I don't particular type of guy who goes out at night, usually my activities are in the morning. And by the afternoon, I'll be in the in the in the sofa watching Netflix or YouTube. 

 Pawan: Oh, well, thanks. That's great to hear.

 Pawan: And I'm also a completely sports person and a day person. So glad that and probably when we meet in Indonesia, we'll go for a sport or something.  But yeah. Thank you so much for answering that and starting on that note. How would you summarize EIA's people strategy, like, do you have a method or certain philosophies that you have built the entire people function or the people strategy into?

 Pawan: What are some, let's say, 1, 2 philosophies or regions that you have set as a people leader for the organization.  Ichsan Adiwijaya

 Pawan: Yeah. I think in in general, I think what the the business is going through, right, like many other businesses,  I think  we are focusing on really making our business for customer centric. Right? And a lot of transformation in technology as well that comes into play.

 Pawan: And that for me in in terms of the people side we need we are actually doing a lot of capability building And also culture shift and mindset shift. Right? So we need to operate at  At more agile, morning bow, we need people who have growth mindset, who are data driven.  So majority of our strategies revolve around upscaling of people,  recruiting you know talents that in specific areas where we are either very core industry skills or TDA skills.  

 Pawan: And also shifting mindset with the of of the entire population So that we can operate cross functionally, we have of we are also embedding new ways of working, like agile teams, across the different areas  to get things done.

 Pawan: So these are, like, the major teams that we are doing to make sure that our organization and our people are adaptable to the changing environment and also the technology Option. Yeah. 

 Pawan: Yeah. So I have I had already parked all these questions for you, which is with respect to culture shift, growth mindset,  technology adoption and, you know, being more agile and everything. But before I get into this,  I think I I have also been in my previous organization in a in an environment like this.

 Pawan: And most of the times when it is very fast paced and agile, sometimes some of the employees might feel you know, I I don't wanna say fatigue, but they might feel like, okay, they are lagging behind and the environment is moving too fast.  

 Pawan:How have you been able to manage certain employees who are maybe not that agile or, you know, fast paced in terms of technology adoption or other things. Because because I'm sure you you I have you come across as a very empathetic leader as well. So how do you manage different set of people?  Yeah.

Ichsan Adiwijaya: I think it's it's it it it will happen. Right? Because I think out of a hundred percent of the population,  10 to 20 percent will adopt very quickly, but then the rest of the organization might just be behind that. And what we are doing here in AIA is To also make sure that our leaders are are also equipped to manage a diverse workforce. Right?

Ichsan Adiwijaya: So we have now in the in the workforce multigenerational,  and then we also have a lot of Gen z's are entering the workplace, you know, combining with the millennials  and, you know people from the industry, people from outside the industry, people with tech skills. So we are equipping our leaders to be able to mentor and coach a team. Right? 

Ichsan Adiwijaya: So we need to make sure that we don't we we coach everybody to be able to perform, you know, regardless of where their background is. Yeah.

Ichsan Adiwijaya: So I think that's also part of the the the fundamental change that in this what we call digital transformation that need to happen. A lot of pressures for leaders and managers to be able to, you know, bring their team along and Also, I understand the current issues that that are happening in the workforce, such as, you know mental Mental well-being, mental health, right, and also diversity,  equity, and inclusion.  And all of these things are new to many of the leaders, and they need to be able to adapt to it. Yeah. 

 Pawan: Yeah. And I actually read on some of your LinkedIn post about a leadership center program. Is this part of your upskilling and the other programs that that you have been needing, or this is something else. Do you want to talk about that a little bit? 

Ichsan Adiwijaya: Yeah. In AIA, we have a AIA leadership center in Bangkok.

Ichsan Adiwijaya:  So we we that that basically, a centralized unit in the in the group of AIA to when they they develop,  programs for leaders, and we send different levels of leadership in each of our country where the AI operates to the leadership center. And yeah, this is to make sure that we have also networking across the different markets. Yeah. And but also to make sure that we get world class development programs to our best talents. Yeah.

Ichsan Adiwijaya:  And complementary to that, we each of the country and, like, in Indonesia, we also have our own leadership Programs, you don't send everyone to Bangkok. So we have also leadership programs here that we are doing for the remainder of the balance that we have. 

 Pawan: Correct. 1 common, you know, challenge that I have observed,  at least in Indian and US related organization is your CXOs and, let's say, VPs have the great leadership programs and everything. But for it to translate into managers or senior managers or that's it.

 Pawan: It's right till the intern as well of the organization. Sometimes that translation of values or core skills is, like, not happening. How would you recommend somebody who's gonna watch this or read about this maybe later. How how can they solve for that? How can they translate those values right from the CXO till the intern of the organization? 

Ichsan Adiwijaya: Yeah. I I think 1 of the 1 of the things that we are doing, and I think it's happening in in different places, is we're actually  almost deconstructing the silos. We are in in AIA, we are we have a a relatively flat organization. 

Ichsan Adiwijaya: So  anyone even from the from the lower ranks in the organization can actually have a have meetings with the for the CXOs. And I think this is a powerful you know, an impactful  change because,  those cultural changes, those values are manifested in the way And the way we interact.

Ichsan Adiwijaya: Right? So I think it's important for leaders. I know we have lots of meetings, whether it'll be online or Or offline. Right? And whatever behaviors that you or values that you want to espouse, That should be manifested in role model during these interactions.

Ichsan Adiwijaya: Right? Do we have maybe agile meetings or we have, you know, regular meetings, weekly meetings, or reports, or  what have you and the values, for example, for us there are 3 different values or behaviors that we are espousing, you know, courage, clarity, and humanity. 

Ichsan Adiwijaya: And these are 3 things that we want our CXOs to to demonstrate.  And, of course, when you have a flatter organization, you have very dynamic in organization. You can see directly what how what the leaders are how the leaders are behaving and what is condone and what is incentivized by by the leaders in the organization.

Ichsan Adiwijaya: And that's, to me, is the is the only way to actually staying any, you know, value or behavior change. Yeah. 

 Pawan: Yeah. Yeah. Makes sense, actually.

 Pawan: And I think I've observed a lot of other teachers also implementing this. So this might definitely help. I wanna touch upon the digital transformation  that the HR department is, like, facing right now. Of course, we have the HRMS and the management platforms like a Workday or Darwin Box and multiple others that that that may be out there. But there is this aI revolution also that's happening especially with respect to, let's say, automating certain tasks or feedback surveys or all of those things.

 Pawan: How much have you started adopting? How much are you planning to adopt maybe in the coming few years? Do you want to unpack that a little bit for us? 

Ichsan Adiwijaya: Yeah.I think we started in in implementing 1 of the 12 HR platform about 3 3 years ago or 4 years ago. And ever since then, I think we've gradually  automated a lot of the HR operations, like you know, things that would occupy a lot of the Used to be a personnel administration work. Yeah. Like, a claim reimbursements and you know, questions that would normally be occupying HR people to through calls, like knowing my my leave balances and claiming my reimbursements or changing my personal data. Right?

Ichsan Adiwijaya: All of those things have either become self-service, right, or have become, like, automated through to robots. And I think this evolution  will continue. Right?  1 of the key things in that we are experiencing is that once you have a good platform And you've automated  some of the more menial tasks. I think the next level of AI that we could leverage things like GenAI, things like that, we need to also make sure that we have a clean a good data a good data set.

Ichsan Adiwijaya: So I think,  not only and this date HR is actually rife with employee data. Right? People movements And, you know, people get to training. You need to update, you know, skill profiles. You need to make sure it's there.

Ichsan Adiwijaya: You know, people not only work in AIA. But before they come to join us, maybe the other experiences and skills that we need to make sure that they're all there and And having the right post profiles assigned to the to the jobs and and things like that, to me, I think are the fundamentals that we are working on to make sure that we the next level capability that we're building will be will be  we'll be you know, fruitful. Yeah. Yeah. If you don't have the right data, then it's hard to to actually have a meaningful insight, yeah, on the AI.

 Pawan: And especially with, you know, the generational diversity increasing and, you know, the Gen Z is coming into workplace. I think, this technological adoption becomes even more important. Yeah. So Yeah. 

Ichsan Adiwijaya: Yeah. Yeah. And I think it's all now is is people have jobs. Right? But now I think we need to understand skills level. Right?

Ichsan Adiwijaya: Because organizational needs change  quite often. You know? Sometimes we need someone who has a certain type of skills. They might not be reflected in the job title, but they might actually do it somewhere in the projects that they do. And these things are  usually very, very hard to capture.

Ichsan Adiwijaya: Right? Unless you know the person and what so and so has actually done this before, then maybe No. If we have thousands of people it's you have to, like, to to use technology to do this. And in order for technology to work, Then you actually have to make sure that these skills are documented as as people grow within the company and and the platforms  Actually, it can be used to store this information. Yeah.

 Pawan: Yeah. I'm glad that we spoke about this and also about generational  diversity. It's it's becoming a very hot topic across the child leaders from across the globe not just in Indonesia. So I'm glad that we touched upon this. I'm gonna come to my last set of, like, questions.

 Pawan: And this is this is more about understanding your journey and also where do you see the next few years as a people function might become. So the first question I wanna ask you from this set is, what has been some of the biggest challenges that you have faced as a people leader across your journey, not just currently right now at EIA, but in the span of last 20, 25 years. What have been some of the biggest challenges, and how did you, like, overcome them as a people leader?  

Ichsan Adiwijaya: Yeah. It's interesting you mentioned that. 

Ichsan Adiwijaya:Yeah. Somebody asked me this question and gets me to reflect on my career, and I think it's interesting to my my career actually has been quite not ordinary For an HR person. So I I've been in HR roles in between my consulting role. So So I've also seen other companies what what they do and what they're trying to what they're struggling with.  Maybe 10 years ago when I was a CITR for a different industry in a different company,  the The challenge was very different from being a CHRO today. Right?

Ichsan Adiwijaya: The issues are different like you said, like, things like the ESG diversity. Yeah.  Yeah. All these things were not there. Right?

Ichsan Adiwijaya: And I think but,  maybe even up to 5 years ago, there's a lot of HR functions that are still trying to get the the foundations right, the high detractors right. So getting the people services, employee services be customer centric, having the right employee experience  for these services.  And I think today, it's it's much more Right. I mean, we're talking all already more strategic things, more human impact level. So for example,  just making sure that we have the right people and the right with the right skills at the right role.

Ichsan Adiwijaya: Right? So Yeah.  It sounds simple, but it's not it's not Yeah. So sometimes you have to be to  To figure out what is the journey for our employees, maybe 3 to 5 years down the road.  Like, Because the jobs are not static anymore.

Ichsan Adiwijaya: And it's to me, I think the biggest challenge is to make Sure. Our people are  have a growth mindset and adaptable to the changing environment. To me, it's that's the the the hardest part because Yeah. You want the organization to be as agile as possible. You don't know what's going to happen in 2, 3 years' time.

Ichsan Adiwijaya:  And what keeps the weight out of your mind is you have you have if you have talents that are actually also agile, so you don't actually need to if there is a there is an issue in the organization,  if every time we have to find somebody from the external to to fill in the gap, That's hard because  bringing in talent from outside also is is is is it's a risk on its own. Right? 

Ichsan Adiwijaya:  You need to make sure they're onboarded correctly. They have right culture, and you have right collaboration.  But if you have people that are you know, 80 percent of you people can actually be adaptable and be, you know, rotated to do different things at different points in time, And they want to grow and things like that.

Ichsan Adiwijaya:  That makes your life a lot easier. So but this is hard to achieve. Right? I think Yeah. Changing people's behavior is  the this this it's much harder than, you know,  putting in place new technology Processes.

 Pawan: Yeah. Yeah. I also feel that and this is something the CEO of LinkedIn recently talked about, that now nobody is having a linear or a conventional part of career because things are changing so dynamically that what maybe if you plan for 5 years your will function, the skills that you while the rules that you are like, that have been created in organizations are completely, like, changing. So that's also 1 thing that I have also personally observed that no 2 CHROs that that maybe created maybe 10 years from now would have the same path to that position. So I think that that nonlinear  curve of career path is also now happening drastically.

 Pawan: And, of course, the Gen z is coming now to workplace, so that's also going to have an interesting impact. I wanted to know from you what is what is something,  you know, that makes a great HR leader. Like of course, we have talked about digital adoption. We have talked about being empathetic leader. May we talked about embracing change management.

 Pawan: But what are let's say, top 3 traits of a great HR leader? What what do you think are the 3 traits?  

Ichsan Adiwijaya: To me, I think being very  attuned to the environment. Right?  You have to be able to quickly  since the parts of the organizations have different levels that that means to me is, personally, you Cannot be too self centered.

Ichsan Adiwijaya: You have to actually look at things on how people see things and try to process that in a positive way for you to be able to to react to it. Yeah. That's number 1. Number 2, I think HR leaders nowadays need to be very business  oriented. You know?

Ichsan Adiwijaya: You have to have the business acumen  to be able to understand what, you know, the business is going through, what the people in the ground, your Salesforce, right, your operations guys are going through, and  and be empathetic to their situations. And and to me that requires somebody who have the competent HR skill sets, but but then also have the generalist,  you know, skill set to be able to understand and speak to the business. Yeah. Yeah.  I think that's those are the 2 things that to me that are very critical to for leaders.

 Pawan: Yeah.  Yeah. I think business acumen is definitely something that I've heard from a lot of people that I've hosted on the show that that's that's something that is that has become, like, a necessity. Probably 20 years back, it it wasn't a necessity. But today, it's definitely, like, a necessity.

 Pawan: And I'm glad that you mentioned Salesforce and, like, that they should be aware about, okay, what's happening, what our revenue is, where where are our projections. So I think, that's equally important for an HR leader today.  

 Pawan: My last question, and this is something that I wanna know from you that what do you think the your 20 24 you know, has in store for CHROs or the HR department in general? We've we've talked about technology adoption and using GenAI. So I I think that's definitely, like, a common that because that's happening across departments. What are some things that you feel the next year is gonna have for the HR department? 

Ichsan Adiwijaya: It's a good question. Nowadays, to be honest, you know, sometimes you feel like there's a general theme, but there's no real, you know, specific things that that you can really pinpoint to because you have to be adaptable to whatever situation you have. But to me, I think we're still to me, in 20 24, we still need to focus on the on a few key things. Right?

Ichsan Adiwijaya: I think to me attracting and retaining the the talents that you need in in In doing the business,  that's number 1. Number 2, I think is to Continue to build that the capability of our people to be able to have that growth mindset and uh, agile ways of working and to to have  the the to make sure that there's the right  people are in the right jobs.  That's basically it. But the culture building part to me is is a theme that would probably be  take a few years to to to to develop because, you know, the the the dynamics in the organization is quite high. You know?

Ichsan Adiwijaya: You're bringing in talent from outside, and, also, you're trying to change people and who are already inside. And and this takes time for for the dynamics to gel and to make sure that you have a right combination of skills and and also operating at the same value. Yeah? Yeah. To me, that's still to me the the the major focus.

 Pawan: Yeah. Yeah. And as in more more and more people come into the organization, that culture impact and has to be kept intact. So I think, that correlation, that balance also becomes, like, very, very important.

 Pawan: But thank you so much, Ichsan, for, I think, doing this. I I did not realize when we're done with time, and it felt like a coffee conversation with a friend. So thank you so much for being candid, open, and insightful full at the same time. I'm really glad that we did this, and I am hopefully going to meet you soon in person as well. So we'll do longer conversations at that time.

 Pawan: But, yeah, thank you so much for doing this.  

Ichsan Adiwijaya: Thank you, Pawan. It's my pleasure. I think these kinds of conversations sometimes you ask questions that I don't normally think about because you in the day to day basis, you you react to things. And when you ask these questions, it's it forces me to to reflect and to, you know to see what what what patterns are and what I need to think about also in the future.

Ichsan Adiwijaya: Thank you so much. 

 Pawan: I'm I'm gonna ask you more questions in person, which will be off recording. So we'll do a lot more thinking when we meet in person. 

Yeah. Thank you so much, Ichsan , once again.