Tahseen: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the People Led Show. Our guest for today is the dynamic Manmeet Sandhu. Manmeet is the Chief People Officer at PhonePe Private Limited. She joined PhonePe in 2018 after spending almost a decade at Amazon. At PhonePe, her focus has been to enable a long term, sustainable organization through attention to culture, manager capability, inclusion, and accelerated impact. With 20 years of HR experience across geographies, she's an expert in areas like compensation, diversity and inclusion, and business partnering. Let's dive in and learn from her incredible journey. Welcome, Manmeet. Thanks so much for joining us today.

Manmeet Sandhu: Thank you, Tahseen. Very happy to be here and look forward to the conversation.

Tahseen: Absolutely, Manmeet. I'm, looking forward to the conversation as well. I have read so many amazing articles and seen so many amazing interviews from you that I cannot wait to get started. So I'm going to dive right in. Manmeet, usually our first question is, we want to know the person who is, leading so many people. So who is Manmeet? Who is the, human behind the human resources? 

Manmeet Sandhu: Well, I think, A regular person is the way I would sort of think about it. I, am the younger daughter of of a sibling of two. My elder sister and my family more broadly has a defense background. So I grew up in different parts of the country. I grew up also with sort of that that understanding that what you do with your life is up to you. And I think that was a very, very strong value that my parents sort of inculcated. And that has kind of lasted me well through my last 22, 24 years in the corporate world. I was always and continue to be a relatively quiet introverted person. So you can imagine that the kind of things I like to do is to read books and go off on travel and hiking through different parts of the world and the country as much time with myself as possible. The choice of HR as a career is interesting within that introverted, space, but I think it is also the fact that, while I like spending a lot of time with myself, I also also like to understand how the world works. And I think HR gives you a very interesting view of what is going on and how can you influence it in a way that is more systemic, that is more, broad in terms of the kind of impact that you can have.I have been looking at, options to be able to contribute more sustainably to some of the parts of the world that I traveled to. I was recently in Kashmir and I've been thinking about ways in which maybe, development or people development can be something that I can contribute to more directly over there.

Manmeet Sandhu: so yeah, that's kind of broadly who I am.

Tahseen: Wow. you know, while you were saying everything, it just felt like, Hey, this is me too. This is me too. Like being the younger daughter, have an elder sister, read books, introverted, sustainable living. I mean, I could not relate more to that. Oh, lovely. So so that, that was a really nice, great introduction.

Tahseen: Anyway, moving on you know, one of the interviews you said something very interesting that we have had the infrastructure to be nimble at all times. And I think that says something about, you know, PhonePe focus towards. digital transformation. So, talk us through that, like what has been happening at a specific HR level, what is the kind of, adoption that you have seen in terms of automation as well as AI? 

Manmeet Sandhu: In HR, it has been an interesting journey because, we, began the process of setting up HR in the organization fairly early as compared to, most startups. So I think about two or three years in, I was kind of brought in. and for us from the get go, the focus was that when I talk about nimbleness, when I talk about having a company that is highly agile, one of the components, one of the core components of that is that decision making is federated out. More and more people are able to take decisions independently without waiting for someone else to kind of tell them what to do. And within that frame is kind of how we thought about automation and technology in the HR space.

Manmeet Sandhu: The journey started with us starting off with what our core system of record has to be. So we went through a process of having Darwin box that took us through our initial stages when we were still a relatively small company. They were able to give us. good initial tools that helped us sort of understand what kind of, a core system of record that we wanted to be. And then we subsequently moved to, uh, SAP, which again, from the scale that we were approaching was much, much stronger. And then over the last few years, we've been thinking about ways to build on top of that core system of record to be able to enhance, the employee experience. So, adopted, tools concerned with employee engagement, adopted tools, around ATS and, talent acquisition automation. of course, performance management, feedback mechanisms, employee interaction. We have, intranet that sort of provides that opportunity. All of those were built in one on top of the other, largely on the core capability of, success factors or SAP. and, the last year or so, and I think the year forward also is a lot more about experiments around what are things that work specifically for us. So we've been experimenting with ways of being able to make performance management a lot more about feedback and development. And a large component of that is continuous feedback. Which then means continuous feedback and feedback from both peers as well as managers and stakeholders and being able to consolidate that feedback into something that is intelligent and coherent and provides useful inputs to employees is one of the places where we've been using A. I. We have also been using it in terms of simplification of our TA processes, again, fairly early in our journey, a long way to go on that. And we are kind of continuously exploring tools that can do a better job of enhancing that experience.

Manmeet Sandhu: You mentioned something about how to enable people to take decisions and how you're using technology so that those decisions are standardized right across the board. Can you give us an example of what that looks like in action? 

Manmeet Sandhu: So I think the most simple one, is really around making sure that people have access to information and data that they require for that. So within the HR space, what does what this means is that we have had a BI dashboard that provides all managers with access to their specific metrics on an ongoing basis.

Manmeet Sandhu:  We also have a engagement tool, which again is an automated dashboard that provides them with access to information on how they're doing against standardized engagement scores against the organization. The ongoing work that continues on that is in being able to integrate both of those, uh, and to be able to create stronger correlations around what is leading to what behaviors, what's the input that we have, what is the lead metric that we have, and what kind of a lag metric is it translating to?

Manmeet Sandhu: For example, we found that, teams that have high attrition rates tend to also have scored on the engagement survey, a lower sense of belonging within the organization. And when they talk about a lower sense of belonging, that very specifically talks about the extent to which they feel like they have a voice in the team that they're in and the extent to which that they feel valued by the managers and the team members that they're working with.

Manmeet Sandhu: Now, if you have that clear understanding that, hey, you need to improve an employee's sense of value in the team for them to last in the team for a long period of time then it's just about saying managers, what are some of the specific things that you can do, which can be covered as part of manager capability, but can also be a checklist, that sort of tells them about what might be those simplistic things that help you create sort of that sense of belonging within the team and can, can influence, attrition in the team in the long run.

Manmeet Sandhu: So this connection we've been able to build and provide that input at the manager level, where if they want, they also have the guidance from an HRBP available, but by and large, they're largely independent in being able to figure out how to identify and solve the problem because all the tools are there in front of them.

Tahseen: I love that example because, especially because managers are the face of the organization 

Tahseen: and if the managers themselves are disengaged, then it becomes very hard for, you know, employees to remain engaged. 

Manmeet Sandhu: Manmeet before, you know, I move on to, to understanding a little bit more about how you've made your decisions about, you know, using any automation or AI tools. so I, if I understand this correctly, PhonePe has around 10, 000 full time employees and 12, 000 contractual employees around approximately that much in a situation like this. And a lot of these employees are also, feet on street employees. So what are the specific initiatives that you are taking to kind of manage employee, employee engagement at this scale, and especially for those employees who are not in the office who are out there, you know, working on field.

Manmeet Sandhu: Right. So I'll divide that into two. One is just engagement, which is just making sure that employees feel Like they are being heard, that their managers are talking to them, that there are you know, informal events and engagements that happen for them on an ongoing basis, that somebody from the HR team is reaching out to them on an ongoing basis.

Manmeet Sandhu: But I think the additional thing that we focus on is try to make sure that employees across the organization are aware of our investment in development of their careers. 

Manmeet Sandhu: And the way we look at that is that for each level in the organization, for people on the street, there is an opportunity to move to the next level. which is, sustained, which is a combination of their ability to deliver as per performance standards in the, in the team, but also then from there onwards to have opportunity to learn some additional skills and to, be nominated for jobs that require some extra degree of, of skill and capability that opens up a slightly broader world for them.

Tahseen: I think apart from that Manmeet, if I may add on you know, on your behalf, some of the things that I liked was, the like creating very specialized routes for women so that they feel safe and secure or, do having the SOS on your app so that they can get acts, if they are in a you know, an endangered situation, they can, get get help immediately or even something as simple as, you know, cleanliness and hygiene. I think that is something very small, but it kind of will go a long way and help ensuring that employees stay for longer or they know that, you know, the organization means means well for us. So I really love that.

Manmeet Sandhu: Yeah, no, for us being able to create an inclusive organization is a large part of the focus. And since such a large part of our organization is out in this field, if I have to say that I would like to have more women over there, I can only do it if I'm able to offer them at least the fundamentals of the work environment that is safe and secure. So everything that we can do towards ensuring that becomes kind of part of our, our focus area.

Manmeet Sandhu: So you are walking the talk, if I may say. 

Tahseen: All right. Switching gears a little bit on more on technology and AI. So, you know, you said that you are using some tools already, you're exploring some more experimenting. When you started off on this journey, were there any sort of barriers of adoption that came across, and how did you overcome them?

Tahseen: Can you take us through that journey of, you know, initial resistance?

Manmeet Sandhu: the most important component that helped with the success was that these initiatives were towards solving a problem. And we didn't say we want to be an AI first company. We said that we want to be able to solve problems for, from an HR space, from an employee space in the simplest, most efficient fashion. If the tool to be able to do that was an AI tool then we would adopt the AI tool. If the tool to be able to enable that is data, then we will do what it needs to be done on the data adoption analytics perspective.

Manmeet Sandhu: If the tool is manager capability, then we'll do manager capability. So I think one of the largest ways in which we were able to improve adoption was or reduce barriers was by talking about it in terms of the problems that have surfaced and then the solutions that can best sort of solve those solutions.

Manmeet Sandhu: I think on the AI side, definitely one of the ongoing concerns has been that maybe there is a mismatch between what the expectations of an individual when they hear AI are and what the current state of evolution of some of the AI tools is. 

Manmeet Sandhu: So I think one of the big gaps is really that when people hear AI, they suddenly kind of transpose themselves 100 years ahead, and they think everything will work automatically. While the the I think the day to day reality is a little bit more prosaic. And some of that, I mean, the way we sort of manage that is by maybe looking at smaller problems.

Manmeet Sandhu: 

Tahseen: You mentioned that, you look at what are the problems that you are looking at solving. So from that lens, what are the priorities that you, as you know, chief people officer at PhonePe have for the next year? What are some things that you are prioritizing and what's on your agenda?

Tahseen: So for me, a lot of the challenges are around leadership capability, around deepening managerial expertise, around simplifying expectations for managers. So they don't have to think a whole lot about what does it take to be a successful manager, but can start just doing things that make them better at at managerial capability. Another big area of focus for us is to try and see how we can ensure that development for employees continues to happen as the organization expands.

Tahseen: So our expectations from where the organization needs to go over the next couple of years is very, very ambitious. The only way that can happen is that if we can continue to scale employees to be able to do the same thing. 

Tahseen: Got it. And in terms of, you know, since career, you know, there'll be two types of learning where one, it's like a one time thing where you put them through a, a course or a session or certification, but also, continuous learning where they, at any time they want, they can go access the information and, get started. So is there any plans like that?

Manmeet Sandhu: Yeah, so we I will say that we don't have a learning management system today, largely because our needs have changed quite a bit over the last few years. So this year one of the plans we have is to be able to have a learning management system that again solves for the problems that we have.

Manmeet Sandhu: Which are more focused on developing core capabilities strong problem solving capabilities, strong analytical skills, good judgment expertise from a technical perspective in the work that they're doing.I think a part of the problem we have is that we are very clear about the need that we have. We just need to find the right solution that solves for that need. 

Tahseen: Switching gears a little bit what are some, you know, areas where you see the team spending most of their time and you feel that maybe this is an area where automation or digitization could help. 

Manmeet Sandhu: I find that a large part of my team is still spending a lot of time in handling the most operational tasks over there. So I think we'll continue to look at ways in which that can be automated. I think on the talent acquisition side, there is just administrative work around scheduling of interviews around collating of feedback, collating of feedback around sort of making sure the right kind of inputs are available. Which I think again, we still have a lot of opportunity to be able to automate. On the business partnering side, I think the opportunity is around being able to have a lot more in the moment, understanding of what is going on with the employees and then being able to translate that into more effective strategies to stay ahead of those specific issues and challenges.

Manmeet Sandhu: I think there are some tools available around being at, at a survey or an engagement tool level that provides some. But I think the, the leadership still depends to a very large extent on the nuance that a conversation tends to very frequently provide the HRBP 's. But if there were better ways of being able to, tell them where they need to double click versus where they can go by what the data is saying, I think that could be a significant saving from an efficiency perspective. 

Manmeet Sandhu: Now

Tahseen: just kind of going a little more macro in terms of you know, the organization or the CEO, how has the expectations from the HR function changed, in the recent time? What has been like, or has it changed? Let me not be presumptuous here.

Manmeet Sandhu: say focus has shifted to being able to create an organization that is more sustainable that incorporates hiring practices that incorporates development efforts that incorporates organization design and organization structure that can help you and sustain you to the next.

Manmeet Sandhu: generation or so. And so I think the focus has shifted a lot more to being more long term. We, I think at PhonePe, our, we were always a little bit more biased towards long term from the beginning, but I think that has sort of become a much stronger focus. 

Manmeet Sandhu: How do we make it more from a cost perspective more efficient? How do we make sure productivity is a, is a stronger focus area? How do we make sure that we are able to do things that we know that we'll be able to continue to do for a long period of time, some of which might be big investments today, but that'll give us the returns in the long term. Some of which might might be to say that, no, we can't afford to spend this much today because this is a cost that'll continue to balloon and we have to figure out how to manage it more effectively. 

Tahseen: I think we are nearing the end, Manmeet, and I've kept my two favorite questions for the end. The first one is if you could share any interesting, fun or thought provoking story from your years in HR.

Tahseen: Our audience loves a good inside scoop. 

Manmeet Sandhu: So one of the things that I had said yes to was this opportunity that had come my way to spend some time with the China office for Amazon. And yes, I will say that when I'd said yes to it, I hadn't just necessarily thought too much about it. But it was, I will definitely say that one of the most interesting experiences for me. It was a very interesting experience from a work perspective and I think a huge learning and added quite significantly to my capabilities and skill sets and my career opportunities on the whole, but I think just living in, in China was also very interesting You're kind of very much on your own and you have to figure out your way around a country where nobody speaks the language and nobody's particularly interested in you because you don't look like, like anybody else. So I think I've had all sorts of adventures. I have taken a taxi and then not known how to get this person to get me back to where I wanted to go. So I have had people have long conversations with me in the middle of the street in Mandarin and have not understood a word of what they have said, but we both loved each other at the end of the end of that discussion. So I think that experience both from being able to understand what I would always say is the fundamental similarity of human beings. And also just being able to put yourself in a completely strange world and see what, what you emerge as on the other side. I think just even from an HR perspective was a, it was a fascinating experience.

Manmeet Sandhu: All right. 

Tahseen: And my last question for the day if there was one advice you could give to people leaders across India, what would it be? 

Manmeet Sandhu: As a people leader, focus on the problem that you're trying to solve. If you focus on the problem that you're trying to solve, then, whatever else you might want from a functional perspective, from an individual perspective, will follow.

Manmeet Sandhu: Being able to keep your stakeholders first, being able to keep your organization first, and then working backwards from there towards what might be priorities and what might be solutions, I think has, has worked very, very well for us at PhonePe HR in being, an effective and adjusted partner for a business. And I think that's, that's probably what my advice would be. 

Tahseen:  So that is some great advice and a great reminder for everyone. Thank you so much, Manmeet. This was an amazing conversation. if it were up to me, I would go on for another 30 minutes, but I'm sure you have other things to do. And so I will, you know, I'll close out on that note. Thank you very much.

Manmeet Sandhu: Thank you, tahseen. It was really, really nice speaking to you. Thank you.