Pawan Rochwani: Hello, everyone. Welcome to another episode of People That Show where I'm interviewing CHROs and HR leaders from Southeast Asia. In today's episode, I have the opportunity of interviewing and speaking to Alvanson So, who is the regional people lead in Philippines for Canva Philippines. I have been a customer or a user of Canva from its early days, and it was really a pleasure speaking to him and understand how they are building a global workforce who's behind such an extraordinary product. Apart From he being the currently the regional lead for Canva Philippines, he's an accomplished HR leader with a track record of driving organizational growth and fostering an engaged workforce.

Pawan Rochwani: With over a decade of experience, his career journey reflects his commitment to enhancing employee experience, driving talent development, and shaping company cultures. And he was also recently included in the bridge top hundred HR leaders from Philippines. And I'm glad I had the opportunity to interview him sometime in the month of December. So this was a prerecorded conversation. You will see certain context from December 20 23 that was being discussed.

Pawan Rochwani: And let us know how did you enjoy this conversation. And if there's something that you want us to improve or Keep doing more in the coming episodes. Feel free to drop a comment and share us any suggestions that you might have. Thank you so much, Vincent, for taking out the time to be on our show, and I'm really, really thrilled that I'm speaking to somebody like you. And we probably missed meeting at the PMAP event, but I'm glad that we are doing this today to know a lot about people's strategy and your methods and everything about Canva's culture as well today on this recording. 

Alvanson So: Happy to be here, and thanks for the invitation, Pawan.

Pawan Rochwani: You know, Vincent, the first thing I always ask all my guests is, who are you outside of work? Because I know being a people leader sometimes becomes so much about work that we sometimes miss knowing these leaders who are the outside of work.

Pawan Rochwani: So why don't we start with, what are you doing when you're not working? Who are you outside of your work? 

Alvanson So: Funny that you should ask that. I think, definitely, many people don't know about this about me. So if I'm not doing HR work, I would you would normally find me on a local gaming store like playing tabletop games.

Alvanson So: So I love playing the I I love playing with other people using strategies, which I think is helpful in my line of work. I've been doing trading card games ever since I stepped into high school, I never stopped. I even hosted a blog site, during a couple of years back before the pandemic, just to share my sort of tips and tricks on how to play the game that I love. So yeah. You won't find that in the Internet.

Pawan Rochwani: Nice. And I also really love your LinkedIn post, by the way, the way you write about, all the things that are happening at the Canva team, and I think that's really lovely. And we'll talk a lot about that in the next few minutes. But what is let's say, what are 3 methods to keep your team members or to keep employees well engaged in an organization. And this could this is not just with respect to, let's say, Canva, but what have you observed across other organizations as well in Philippines.

Pawan Rochwani: What are some methods to keep employees well engaged in the company? 

Alvanson So: I think the way I would answer that question is what if I was the 1 who I try to engage? Right? Like, we speak about employees, But we are employees ourselves. Right?

Alvanson So: And I think what keeps me engaged and switched on in the job is, number 1, I know what the company is trying to achieve. I am aligned with what the company stands for. I am I have complete understanding of its mission and vision. Like, what is it existing and operating for? And I can if I can find a strong alignment to that direction, to that North Star, then I know the meaning of the work that I do.

Alvanson So: Yeah. Of meaning, I think the other thing that we have to be more deliberate is to and Give people a sense of why or a sense of purpose. Like, why do they do the thing that they do? Right? 

Pawan Rochwani: Yeah.

Alvanson So: At least from my experience, if you merely work for the pay, which is not bad, like, it is a logical decision to take a job. But then I I read somewhere that, you know, salary is going to motivate you twice a month whenever it's dispersed. But then on a day to day basis, it is the purpose or it is the meaning of the work that you do and the people around you that keeps you engaged as well is what makes the day to day are much more enjoyable. Right? Yeah.

Pawan Rochwani: Yeah. And I think that's that's true for like, people of all levels. Right? Like, it right from an intern or somebody who's, let's say, a CXO. I think if they believe in the purpose, they will definitely be well engaged in the org.

Pawan Rochwani: And thanks for answering that. And and, you know, I was just this morning, very coincidentally by that time, we had not scheduled this recording. I was using Canva for creating a party invite that I'm hosting next weekend at my place. And all my other friends also who are in Australia or in US they also use Canva. And it's truly a global product and a global workforce Mhmm.

Pawan Rochwani: And I've seen how like, during the pandemic, there were certain changes in, let's say the remote setup, hybrid work setup, and even now how have you adapted the flexibility of remote work and hybrid work? What are some of the it's our policies and practices that Canva has adopted with respect to the work the way you work. 

Alvanson So: I think the biggest step that we took that helped influence all the other policies and programs that we brought to life in the last 3 years since we entered the pandemic was to immediately adopt a remote first mindset. I think since we were all forced to work from home, right, when the entire world went into lockdown, I think really challenge our ideas of how work should be done and where and how companies are run. Right?

Alvanson So: I think, fundamentally, We had to really throw the textbook out the window and look at work and work and look at organization design very differently while in the pandemic. So, like, right now, 20 23 would be the relatively the first year that we're officially out of the pandemic. And I think that we have to recognize that the best practices that we've learned during lockdown should not be ignored. And In contrary, I think we should foster it even more now that we understand the power of distributed, Teams, the ability to work collaboratively collaboratively through asynchronous platforms, you know, like Canva, for example. And also harnessing the power of very strong communication.

Alvanson So: I think and These 3 principles, I think, underpin all the programs and all the policies that organization should be anchoring, and Their program's on yeah. 

Alvanson So: You cannot go back to the old normal, I think, because we have to move forward and appreciate that this is not just the new normal. It's actually a better normal. 

Pawan Rochwani: Yeah.

Pawan Rochwani: Yeah. Yeah. I think that's the right way to put it is is a better normal. It's not just the new normal. And I'm glad.

Pawan Rochwani: In fact, like, at Infinitude also, we are 100 percent remote, and we have a global team, and it's it's really, like, the better normal, I would I would say, and completely aligned with you. Something that I have noticed on your LinkedIn, and this was 1 of the posts about chaos and clarity, and it had a really nice graphic as well. I'm gonna put the link of that LinkedIn post in the description of this episode. On the scale of 1 to hundred where 1 is, let's say, chaos and hundred is clarity when you try, what how and if you wanna explain the entire concept of what was mentioned in that post as well, like, please please do 

Alvanson So: that. Sure.

Alvanson So: I mean, if you ask that question now, my answer will be very different if you ask me maybe 3 years ago. Right? And So due to the nature of my work and my role, I would say that I am more 70 percent. I I would say I would more be aligned I would be more aligned to thriving in a chaotic workplace where or rather, Probably 30 if if 0 would be chaos. Right?

Alvanson So: I mean I mean, I would I would really love more chaos because I think from the role that I play, I am expected to be thrown into the organization's biggest problems. Right? And then come out or emerge with Information, ideas, insights and recommendations to be able to connect the dots. Right? But then there are also some work that you will definitely appreciate a little bit more clarity especially when we focus on systems and processes and tools.

Alvanson So: We wanna make sure that we, I are able to bring up or bring forward our ability to clarify the situation so that your users are able to benefit from that. So I would say you never truly just sit in 1 part of that graph, I mean, you have to move around. And, also, it's good for variety or else it's extremely exhausting to always stay in chaos, but it's also excessively boring if you just sit fully on clarity. So having that flexibility to jump back and forth, I think, is 1 way to look at that spectrum. 

Pawan Rochwani: Yeah.

Pawan Rochwani: Yeah. And I think I have also personally enjoyed both the phases where at a point of time, I was like, I want absolutely absolute clarity. And then 1 time I was thriving with chaos and that hustle mindset. So I've also been shuffling between different phases. And 1 thing but in in both these spaces that kind of, like, really helped me was having a great leader who was very transparent with me in terms of feedback and, you know mentoring and coaching.

Pawan Rochwani: And I've also observed that you you talk a lot about coaching and leadership in in general. But specifically about feedback, I think that becomes, like, very important for all leaders and people managers. How do you embrace feedback within the culture? Do you wanna share a bit about anything any approaches that you have at Canva currently that you practice with respect to the power of feedback? 

Alvanson So: For sure.

Alvanson So: And I hope that many organizations will do the same. Right? I mean, feedback is a gift. Right? So it's something that you have to give With the best intentions.

Alvanson So: Right? But I think feedback is 1 way to provide sort of to provide feedback. But there's actually 1 other way, which is to feed forward. I don't know if you've heard of that term, but rather feedback is really good when you want to account for behaviors or achievements from a perspective of the past. But particularly for critical feedback, it's quite difficult to embrace because these are things that 1 person has done previously, you're bringing it into the present, which can be somehow uncomfortable or painful.

Alvanson So: But then if you twist and Or rather pivot the conversation into a feed forward where we we frame the feedback as A suggestion on how they could improve their performance, let's say, moving forward. Let's say, for example, rather than saying, and Hey, Pawan. In the meeting a while ago, you were really rude. It's really looking at the back looking at the previous situation and then bringing it forward. While if I turn that into a feed forward approach, I would say, hey, Pawan.

Alvanson So: In the meeting a while ago, I think there's really an opportunity for you to do a better job in collaborating the people in the audience. It's actually like putting the fry the framework or the mindset of the person receiving feedback from into a future state where they're given an opportunity to improve and do better. And I think that makes the feedback easy to embrace. And I think that and Deliberateness to make feedback easy to embrace and easy to share is what makes, I think, our culture at Canva, really good where people are open and generous to give and ask for our feedback regularly, which then makes coaches or what we call our managers, coaches, and their coaches work better together. 

Pawan Rochwani: Yeah, I think I'm gonna adapt this within our team and not call it, like, feedback anymore and but probably from a future forward perspective.

Pawan Rochwani: And I'm sure everybody was gonna listen to this. They'll also have these takeaways from this answer. My last question about specific to, you know, the culture at at Canva. And again, this is also something that I've read quite often about, you know, how people really appreciate about the support that Canva offers to all their employees in terms of physical and mental health. But wanted to know from you as a people leader, how do you decide where all you should be supporting people?

Pawan Rochwani: What are some of the best practices, that you're offering to all the employees. That probably other HR leaders are going to listen to this. Maybe they can also adapt to some of these methods. 

Alvanson So: And Sure. I mean, specifically for Canva Philippines we run semiannual an Pulse pulse surveys or engagement surveys as how other companies would call it.

Alvanson So: And we've been very deliberate to make sure that Within the questions that we ask in the survey, we actually touch the mental health topic. But, of course, we do frame it in a way where we ask how people feel. Do they end do they feel energized at work, or do they feel that they're getting the right support? And then through that feedback, we're able to get context as to where we think or where people think that they need a little bit more support has translated into certain concrete programs. Like, we have incorporated several employee assistant programs are EAP.

Alvanson So: For many companies, they might have 1. In Canada, Philippines, we have 3 particularly focusing on making sure people have a channel where they could get counseling, coaching, and even psychiatric support. And Right. But then when we take a look at mental health as a spectrum, it always brings in a stigma that you are unwell. That's why you need help.

Alvanson So: And But sometimes especially, I see this more often in high performers where they're actually not unwell, but they are anxious. How could they sustain their high performance. So the anxiety or especially for people that have been brought into new roles, imposter syndrome kicks in. Right. And so they sometimes doubt themselves.

Alvanson So: So it's not that they're not well, but they do also need an an equal amount of support. And so this is where we bring in internal coaching, which is a team that we have where we invest in professional coaches to help our high performers really excel and combat, you know, these feelings of stress and anxiety. But even on top of that, I think We can also look at mental health as a spectrum where people can bounce on and off, you know, from being really well to somehow a little bit unwell. And I think that 1 of the things that we found really effective is to incorporate work life balance into the work. And 1 of the things that have worked effectively is that we have a lot of clubs at Canva, so these are employee driven, company funded clubs where people can take on their passion while they're working.

Alvanson So: And we have, like, 200 different clubs, from sports to arts to cooking to mountain climbing, all the way to even the trading card game that I play has a club in Canva, which allows people to somehow design and manage their work around their lives rather than the other way around where you design your life around your work. Right? It's very different, and I think that has helped keep the wellness of our employees really well, really high. 

Pawan Rochwani: Wow. I'm sure all the people leaders are gonna watch this and listen to this.

Pawan Rochwani: They I'm gonna have some great takeaways from this answer. And I'm gonna move to my last 2 set of questions, and this is this is to understand more about the ecosystem that's out there and what do you feel about the HR professional in general. So what do you think makes a great HR leader or a great people leader? What are, let's say, attributes or, let's say how do you how what are the symptoms of a great HR leader? 

Alvanson So: And I would borrow the words of our founder Mel.

Alvanson So: Right? And And this has resonated with me on my first month at Canva, and this is, like, more than 4 and a half years ago. I think the strongest leaders give their give themselves and others the permission to be kind. And we talk about empathy a lot when we discuss philosophies around leadership. But I think that by by just calling it and Something more personal.

Alvanson So: We're giving other people and yourself the perversion to be kind and to look at people and see them to be coming to you with the best interest. Right? Really spending the time to listen, not to respond, but to listen to understand. Right? To communicate and to lead, not to impress, but to communicate and lead to make an impact.

Alvanson So: I think these mindsets are very and Significant if if recognized really well. And I think that we have a lot of leaders that exemplify these behaviors, But many also do not. So I would really, you know I would really suggest and encourage leaders to think of leadership as not just a position, but rather an obligation or a responsibility. Not a permission. It's not a license to do less.

Alvanson So: It's actually a responsibility to do more. I think Simon Sinek said that. And But there's really a lot of really human essentials or human fundamental characteristics that make a leader a good leader. Right? And we have to tap into those If you want to be 1.

Pawan Rochwani: Got it. Well, that's nice. And I also have read quite a few times about how Mel, you know, just talks about leadership and the way she's built Canvas. So I am also equally inspired by her actions, awards, and all that's publicly available at least for me to read about. Mhmm.

Pawan Rochwani: My last question, and this is the and and I'm gonna end this on, like, a fun note probably. What is 1 thing or a philosophy that you believe in that most of the HR leaders, like, don't believe in? I'll give you an example. I I think I'll I have heard a lot of people leaders not believing in the unlimited leaves policy, for example. Right?

Pawan Rochwani: I mean, if I would get that option as an as a team member, I don't know if I'll exercise that or not. So whatever it is about the method of unlimited leave, that's something that probably I don't believe in. But what's something that you believe in that other people don't really align with you all. Funny 

Alvanson So: that you should mention exactly that example. So I will segue into that, but I guess my response to that to that question is that I think HR generally an to the side of being risk aware.

Alvanson So: Right? I think the the HR discipline is designed that way. Right? And this, I think, limits our ability to genuinely trust people to do good. Right?

Alvanson So: So and which is why I think that idea that you mentioned about employ employers giving their employees unlimitedly is Cutting against the grain because HR would immediately step on the brakes and say, no. No. No. No. If you give that, people will just not work.

Alvanson So: And Right? But then if if we would challenge that thinking, stress if we stress test that thinking, and If people genuinely love what they do, they love what the company stands for. They champion, You know, the culture and the values that your company believes in and that every person genuinely has the company's best interest in mind. Why would someone do that? Right?

Alvanson So: Why would someone cheat, or why would someone abuse such flexibilities? And I'm happy to have witnessed that exactly in here at Canva. So during the pandemic, we had you know, when someone gets sick, you usually, your entire and Sick leave credits for the year is gone because you have to self isolate, you know, and then you have to get some treatments. And Then it just creates more anxiety because you don't know when the next time you will get sick and you might not have enough leaves to cover. So we did launch somewhat a similar mechanism where we could allow people to go on as many leaves as they want.

Alvanson So: And we called we called it flex leaves. Right? And funny, after 1 year of practicing and implementing that policy. We did not see a significant rise in leave utilization. In fact, it just behaved the same way when we didn't have that policy.

Alvanson So: It's just because people actually genuinely know that they have to work if they can, but they Yeah. Stay But they they don't they don't but they don't have to feel anxious whenever they get sick. Right? So that positive mindset that we are able to instill in employees. 

Pawan Rochwani: Yeah.

Alvanson So: We just are able to think like this as HR. 

Pawan Rochwani: And I I love how you linked it with, you know, your previous answer also about employee engagement. Like, if they believe in the purpose, if they believe in the mission, they will not cheat or exploit that flexibility or whatever the unlimited policy that's that's out there. So that definitely, like, truly says that, okay. This is an employ engaged employee and, you know, there's somebody probably who's disengaged.

Pawan Rochwani: But, Branson, thank you so much for doing this. I have had a great time learning about the strategies and culture at Canva and also about Canva Philippines. This was really, really insightful, and I'm sure everybody was gonna listen to this and read about this conversation. They're going to equally enjoy and have those takeaways. So thank you so much for doing this.

Pawan Rochwani: I usually, when time passes by quickly. I feel like that's a great conversation. So I felt like that about this 1. So thank you so much for doing this. 

Alvanson So: No worries, Pawan.

Alvanson So: It was a delightful conversation, man. Hopefully, we could chat again soon. Super.