Tahseen: Hello, and welcome to the People LED show. I'm your host, Tahseen Kazi, and our guest for today is the incredible Dhanashree Thakkar. Dhanashree is the head of human resources at Bharti AXA Life Insurance and has over 2 decades of experience in the field. Dhanashree has experienced leading teams in diverse companies like the Future Group, Mahindra and Mahindra, Kotak Life Insurance, and McDonald's India. A postgraduate in organizational psychology, she has also completed her general management from IIM Ahmedabad.

Tahseen: Dhanashree defines herself as an observer and a listener, the perfect blend for an empathetic HR leader. Welcome, Dhanashree. It's a pleasure to have you here today. 

Dhanashree: Thank you so much, tahseen, and thank you for inviting me and saying all these nice things about me. 

Tahseen: Dhanashree, I'm gonna start off with something that we ask all our HR leaders and, you know, we want to know who is the human behind human resources? What is Dhanashree like outside of work?

Dhanashree: Outside of work I don't think I have outside work and inside work as a separate personality. I think the closer they are, the more fun that you have. At both places, you know, I can appear serious, but, otherwise, I like having fun, love theater, love art, and generally, like having this whole thing that, you know, one day at a time. And, one of my critical value is make a difference in people's lives, and that's what attracts me to this profession. That's something which keeps me grounded as a person.

Tahseen: I wanna I wanna take that as my, you know, segue to my next question, making a difference in people's lives. And I think that's what your job is all about. Every day, that's what you're doing, making a difference in people's lives. So, Dhanashree, from that perspective, I wanted to understand what are some challenges that, You know, you are looking to solve in 2024.

Dhanashree: I think my challenges would be similar to a lot of HR leaders and a lot of people leaders. First is with all these, you know, different things which go on, how do you ensure that people give their best? And while they give their best are they also happy, excited, and, you know continue performing their best? A balance of this can be very critical. It's a it's a difficult balance to have. 

Dhanashree: Second, how do you ensure such people stay back? That, you know, we continue giving them the best experience as well as they continue being excited and stay with us.

Dhanashree: And third is how do you get the best people? How do you hire such people? Okay. So In a way, I had heard this in one of the books, which is get, keep, and grow. So that's, I think, a bigger challenge for all the people leaders.

Tahseen: So Dhanashree, when you say, you know, value creation for people. How do you, as an individual, define value, and how should because value is so subjective, it can mean different things for different people.

Tahseen: How should HR leaders look at creating value for people in the organization? 

Dhanashree: In one of my previous companies, I'd heard that you know, your time is like money invested in a stock market. Okay. So the time I give in this organization is my investment.

Dhanashree: And in this duration of how much ever time that I stay, If my money, like the stock market, continues to grow you know, then it's value created. So similarly, if my time here, I grew as a person, individual, learn new skill sets, and you know, I'm adding to myself, and I'm giving back something. I think in a way, there can be different definitions of value, but this was simpler for me to understand and very easy to explain to anyone that this is what is value. It can have different connotations which are subjective in nature, and each one may define value differently like you said, Tahseen. But this was easy.

Dhanashree: If I tell you, Tahseen, your time here for this podcast or whatever you do, you know, is your money in stock market. And, obviously, you would want to invest in places which are growing well, and have consistency in terms of growth, which continue to grow. And that is how I treat your experience. Does it make it worth your while? 

Tahseen: Absolutely.

Tahseen: Doesn't make it worth your while. And I think making it worth your while is so different for everybody. Right? And I don't think there's one single answer, single solution to it, you just keep walking and growing towards it. But on that note, Dhanashree, how are employee expectations, changing today? Especially now with, the Gen z being in the workforce, are you seeing any significant differences in how employee expectations have changed over the years?

Dhanashree: So our average age is between 30 to 35. Okay? And so I wouldn't say we are exact we are Gen Z. But what I've seen in the Gen Z population that we have, it's an interesting you know, That the expectations in terms of let's say, my generation, I think the expectation is you know, hard work is equivalent to you know, you have to work harder. You have to give your best.

Dhanashree: Whereas, what I've seen of Gen Z is you know, having priorities much clearer and, drawing the lines very clearly. This is my work domain. This is my personal domain. And there, is a certain level of equality that I notice which is different to my generation. Okay.

Dhanashree: It is different to adapt, and I think people you know, leaders that I see are trying to adapt and finding it very difficult to even accept that someone can stand up and say that you know, I'm sorry, this is your priority. It may not be mine. 

Tahseen: Wow. I I just love how candid you were out there, and, you know, that was the most simplest and most candid way you could have put it in that, the generation z, as we call it, they're very clear about about their priorities .

Tahseen: In fact, you know, we've been having conversations with a lot of HR leaders, and we've heard a similar sentiment across.

Tahseen: In the interim, are your strategies changing in any way considering, you know, right now your larger population is between 30 to 35?

Dhanashree: I think there is appreciation that we have to function differently with different audiences. But for us, given that it's 30 to 35 you know, I don't think generation gap becomes a big factor in how HR strategies are played. I think it's more about unifying employee experience. That's where our challenges lie. 

Tahseen: And if I may ask, when you say unifying employee experience, what would that look like? Or what are the kind of things that would go towards unifying that employee experience? 

Dhanashree: So we we just got certified third time in a row for Great Places to Work. And say, for example, under that umbrella, if I were to say that the way our example of a best work experiences where there's transparency, there's communication, there's uniformity, you know, things which are consistently brought out through our different employee portals including Amber, okay, what do people really stand out and say?

Dhanashree: Now if I were to pick one of my remotest branch and a new employee joins or any existing employee. Is he experiencing it the same way that I want him to experience. Okay? That's one example of, you know, a collective Bharti AXA experience. Second is we have our values.

Dhanashree: Like, most companies would have , values. And most often, you know, values stay somewhere on your web portal or, for example, on our cards, ID cards, or something. But to live those those experiencing the values is something which gradually starts becoming a part of your culture. 

Dhanashree: While the statement sounds simple, but the nuances of making it come alive are quite complex, And consistency is the key.

Tahseen: Dhanashree, I wanted to understand from you, and since you're already using Amber and I've seen you know, some HR leaders shy away from using listening channels which are confidential where maybe the employee's name is there but you know the the feedback is confidential, and they wear more towards anonymity. So what do you think would be the reason for that, and how do you make that transition from taking anonymous feedback to taking confidential feedback? 

Dhanashree: I think the best, Tahseen, what I have seen is a balance of everything. Okay?

Dhanashree: We have channels like Amber, where I can give my name and write the feedback, what I'm experiencing. Okay? And then we have other mechanisms which are annual mechanisms which act as such. So I think a balance of and we have almost about 4, 5 such listening posts you know, across the organization besides the HR constant touch touch point which goes on.

Dhanashree: Second, these mechanisms lead to trust in whatever that they're saying is heard without judgment. Okay. And they are both correlated. They are interrelated in a way. Because if the employee believes that his feedback is heard, is acted on.

Dhanashree: It builds credibility into the system. And then regardless of whichever channel you are asking feedback, you'll get honest feedback. Even if their name is asked. Okay. Like, I remember, you know, ages ago when we had started with the annual employee satisfaction surveys which used to run.

Dhanashree: There was a huge apprehension that, you know my name will be seen. It took almost 2, 3 cycles for employees to be convinced that you know there was no access to the individual names. From there to now where every touch point you know almost every quarter when employees get a a nudge from Amber or our internal NPS mechanisms. They write what they feel. 

Tahseen: Wow.

Tahseen: 2 to 3 cycles. And you you mentioned annual survey, which means 2 to 3 years. Yes. Absolutely. That that is I think, you know, this trust building the whole effort and the process is a long one, and I think that's something, you know, that is a strong take away for me.

Tahseen: What are some places where you have regularly seen trust being broken? Or these are somethings we should definitely not do to ensure, that trust remains intact. 

Dhanashree: I think the typical reaction is whenever I remember department head getting you know, their feedback scores. Immediately the reaction is, who said what?

Dhanashree: Tell me, you know, who could this be?. And I think it takes a lot of conversation feedback, working with managers to say that and even me by other managers. Okay?

Dhanashree: Any of us could experience this because that's how we are wired also. Right? I mean, immediately that feedback, which does not make us look good, makes us behave a certain way. It's a defense mechanism. So I think a lot of training conversation to get to a point that this is not about you only.

Dhanashree: It's feedback. And this is an employee voicing out that there is something which they are not happy with, and we need to fix it. So I guess it takes some time to come up to that stage. Where trust is broken is exactly these moments where we go on this fact finding mission and that's why there is a fear that I don't wanna give feedback and, you know, it will be found out or things like that. So while I'm haven't experienced it in the present company, but I've experienced this in the past.

Dhanashree: And to rebuild it takes a lot of time. 

Tahseen: Absolutely, Dhanashree. One point which I really liked you know, that you mentioned was that it takes a lot of training and a lot of getting used to that, the feedback is not not about you personally. It is about the process. It's about how we need to do things better.

Tahseen: And I think, you know, creating that differentiation is the hardest part. But I wanna also, you know, nudge you further on one more point that you mentioned about heard without being judged. First hearing them and then acting.

Tahseen:  Do you and your team also acknowledge feedback that comes from employees? 

Dhanashree: So I think Amber has this feature which is people to meet, which get called out. And that is tracked, of course, where any employee has voiced out that I have a problem and acknowledging mechanism of, you know, speaking to that employee and then reassuring them, that's one mechanism. Every morning, I get alerts from Amber in terms of, you know this is a synopsis. And whenever I can, I do read through the feedback? And I like the feature where I can just go back and thank the employee.

Dhanashree: So, you know, I like those smaller mechanisms that the tool offers. Besides this, I think offline, when we do our virtual focus group discussions or when we do town halls at my level or CEO's level. I think what we first tell them is that, you know, as a culture, to have this mechanism of 2 way communication is what we first emphasize. Because they're highlighting a reason doesn't mean that everything is gonna be fixed immediately.

Dhanashree: But I guess the ability to dialogue and that's what helps us. That's what makes, you know, the management team, the leaders accessible, that they can at least come up and talk and you know voice out what they feel. 

Tahseen: Got it.

Tahseen: So one thing, you know, which you mentioned a few times. And I just wanna understand. So if I'm not wrong, there are around 3500 employees at Bharti AXA. 3800. Yeah.

Tahseen: 3800. Yes. So it's obviously not possible for you to talk to each one of them and, you know have these conversations. But do you feel like these facetimes with the CEO, town halls with you, they make a difference? They feel like, you know, leadership is there listening to us, understanding us, and hearing our concerns.

Dhanashree: Huge, huge difference. In fact, that's almost one of the highlights of our culture that it makes I mean, there is communication forums at every level. The CEO, the function head the regional teams you know, the leadership team and besides this, the other listening posts like Amber, we have employee NPS. We have you know, discussions with HR, which are open houses. So with all of this, it just makes it very easy that even in a you know, good day and not so good day you have someone to reach out to. Yep. 

Tahseen: I think and and to add to that, if I were to say, you know, When they know that leadership is listening, employees know that leadership is listening, that kind of adds to the fact that we have somebody to listen to and who has the decision making power. 

Dhanashree: Yeah. Absolutely.

Dhanashree: The management credibility and, you know we've had we've had recently a change in shareholding. And in spite of such a ambiguous time it's interesting that we still got certified as great place to work. Our scores on management, credibility, pride, all of them went up. So I guess, you know, communication is a has a big role to play, and I guess tools like you know, Amber are very, very helpful there. 

Tahseen: Absolutely. I want to move on to, you know once you have listened, how do you prioritize action? Are there any tips or , suggestions, recommendations that other HR leaders should follow in terms of action 

Dhanashree: planning. 

Dhanashree: I would say that, first is we pick so as a guardrail, you look at what will impact employees' lives if it is has a statutory impact. If it has a customer impact, and if it does have so these are guardrails that you take.

Dhanashree: Okay? Is it ethical? Is it customer related? Is it employee related? Or any stakeholder related?

Dhanashree: With this lens, when you start evaluating the solutions that how is it changing life of any of them. And from that mindset, when you start screening suggestions, comments, feedback and how many pockets is this coming from? Where is it coming from? And that becomes a lens in terms of, how prioritization is done. 

Dhanashree: Say, for example you know, Amber has a beautiful dashboard where we get to know what are the key concerns. How we use it is in our policy decisions, in our development objectives you know, in our conversations with function heads of what could be impacting and what can be changed there. In our dialogues with them, we bring these up that, you know, what what is the impact that they can make to manage their teams better. Perhaps these are insights that they haven't picked up informally. 

Tahseen: I like that.

Tahseen: The framework is quite interesting. And definitely having, a real time dashboard to track employee feedback, definitely helps in the process. 

 Now I want to, you know should hear the little bit, and I want to understand about manager experience separately for in the employee experience bucket. Managers are an are an important bridge between employees and organizations. So what are some things you do and recommend others to do as well to make managers more effective? 

Dhanashree: So for managers, more effective, of course, you know, in different employee cohorts. Say, for example, my frontline.

Dhanashree: For the frontline, the manager is the organization. And, therefore, the experience that they provide is very, very important. And, hence, there are number of steps that we take, which is training managers how to hire, how should they onboard, what is a hand holding that is provided to them in the journey of, you know, making the employee successful.

Dhanashree: And then recognizing them. I mean, for example, Amber has we use this recognition you know, basis best engagement scores that Amber provides on its dashboard. So all those managers are recognized and, they become examples of what is it that I can do on a daily basis. 

Tahseen: Got it.

Tahseen: I think I'm nearing a close, and I wanna understand I wanna know from you Dhanashree, is there any memorable example of employee experience through your years of, you know working in the field where you saw a certain action creating a drastic impact on the employee experience.

Dhanashree: So personally, let me I mean, I'll give you 2 examples here. Something I've experienced personally and 1 otherwise.

Dhanashree: So 1 is I would say that, you know my boss is a very observant person even if very, very busy. And there was a time where you know, I was not at my best given certain personal circumstances, and somewhere it reflect, you know, in conversations or whatever, I hadn't mentioned anything. And you know, immediately after the meeting, in some time, I get a call that what happened, there's something not right about you. I guess and, you know, I I these are moments which you know touch one because you've not said something and, you know, someone as busy as him pick picked this up, made sure that spends time with you to understand, listen, and then find a solution.

Dhanashree: I think these become signature moments, which tie the emotional connection with the individual. Okay? I'll Use this. I'll build on this by saying across employee life cycle.

Dhanashree: Okay? I guess Whenever significant emotional moments in individuals' lives are met, that's what becomes memorable. So for example, it can be you know, you know, and we try and do as much as we can. You got promoted, And I involved your family in the whole celebration. Or we do the CEO awards, And I have, you know I have goosebumps right now, but in the CEO awards, you know employees who won it, who are in some small town, their family comes to Bombay, and the entire leadership team welcomes them into the ceremony, and the entire leadership team team claps for them as they step in. These are huge moments for them. Okay. And that's what they remember.

Dhanashree: That's what keeps them associated with the brand. 

Tahseen: On that note, Dhanashree, I want to ask you 1 last question. If there's 1 piece of advice you could give to people leaders across India, what would it be? 

Dhanashree: Okay. That's a big that's a very big 1. I think I mean, you know, I'll keep it very simple. I'm sure there are different theories associated with it.

Dhanashree: 2 words. 1 is when I joined this function, okay, as a trainee, I remember 1 of my colleague gave me this advice that HR access conscience of the organization. And that has always stayed with me because the conscience always tells you what's right, what's wrong, and I use this as a lever whenever I have to give advice or whenever I have to speak everyone. Second is maintain the authenticity, and this is not just HR. It is as a leader because, specifically, this function the more authentic you are, you can be a great partner to the CEO Because that role is I mean, I don't envy that role at all because it's a very difficult role and it's very lonely. The more you are authentic and you know, you want to make a difference, and on top of that, if you act as a partner, with the conscience that you have, I guess your relationships run deeper, and that's what makes you you know, a good shoulder to help the CEO to think of what's coming next. And, therefore, how can you shape it? 

Dhanashree: Wow. I think you know, that is a very, very different view you know, from what I have heard so far in across my interviews.

Dhanashree: And I think that's so true. Right? And then at the topmost level, it's lonely. Working in a way that you create the best support system for that top leadership is something that, you know, all budding people HR leaders should strive for. That's it for my end Dhanashree.

Dhanashree: This was an amazing conversation. We covered a lot of ground, right, from listening, action planning, challenges. We covered a lot of ground today, and I'm sure our audience is gonna love this. Thank you so much. For all those listening out there Dhanashree is on LinkedIn. She's a top career path planning voice on LinkedIn.

Dhanashree: So if you want to, you know, continue listening to her, getting her advice and insights, and learning from my experiences, do follow her on LinkedIn. Thank you. So much. Thank you.